History of Downed Commercial Flights

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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby cactuspete » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:28 am

cheesewithwhine on Reddit wrote:The reason politics is so dysfunctional is because half of the people in government gain political victories by sabotaging government and then claiming that government doesn't work.

A very similar strategy is being used in Ukraine. For instance, it was claimed that the separatists didn't grant access to the crash site quickly enough, but they were under siege by the forces from Kiev and couldn't allow access since they were busy defending themselves. Similarly, Putin is supposed to have enough control over the separatists to be able to order them to cease fire at any time, but in reality the only way that he could have secured the crash site in order to allow investigators access would have been to send his military into the area to secure the perimeter in which case he would have been accused of a military invasion of Ukraine. Our politicians want to have their cake and eat it too and right now the press is allowing them to get away with exactly that!
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby surfsteve » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:37 pm

pcslim wrote:
cactuspete wrote:
Sparky of SoCal wrote:In regards to the German pilots view of what he believes happened seems somewhat odd. Russia I think would be screaming bloody murder if that report of a Ukrainian fighter jet was responsible and factual. The West would have to own up to that fact, even as sleazy as politics is you can’t hide that kind of thing in today’s world. There are just too many eyes on this story. Yes, I know lies are told everyday in world politics, but this mess has too many eyes on it.

I'm convinced that Russia already knows what happened. It was an assassination attempt on Putin. Russia doesn't "scream bloody murder" because Russia realizes that the propaganda machine is doing it's best to cover things up and that the best way for the truth to be believed by as many people as possible is for the pieces of the puzzle to put together by honest people outside of Russia. The leaders in Kiev are extremists and our country is making the mistake of backing the wrong people yet again. Remember a group called the Taliban?

At this point I hope Merkel pulls the rug out from under the USA and aligns with Russia and that the rest of Europe follows her example. Our foreign policy has been disastrous ever since Bush junior took over. Why Obama didn't clean things up, I do not know, but he's just as bad as Bush junior. Allowing Israel to massacre hundreds of people and destabilizing Ukraine (not to mention Egypt, Syria, and Libya) are travesties beyond comprehension. The irony is that Crimea would still be part of Ukraine if not for our interference in Ukraine.
:smack:

The assassination plot theory doesn't seem so farfetched anymore as we get more details on the crash. I'm not sure I want Merkel to align with Russia since that would hurt our economy, but I'm so ashamed of the way our leaders have conducted business abroad. It's worse than an embarrassment. They have engaged in activities which are immoral at the very least and have made our country appear to the world to be a bully nation that throws its weight around without a care for the harm it inflicts just as long as the rich and powerful get richer and more powerful.


If it happened that way, it could not have been an accident. It's really not that hard to tell the difference between Putin's Jet from the ground, it was cloudy so that was a possibility; but these guys were practically doing a Tom Cruse on the plane. How can they not know the difference when they were right next door escorting them? They were probably close enough to see the rivets. Reading the sign on the plane is a no brainer. If they were any closer they could have asked one of the flight attendants for some GRAY POUPON!
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby cactuspete » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:41 pm

surfsteve wrote:If it happened that way, it could not have been an accident. It's really not that hard to tell the difference between Putin's Jet from the ground, it was cloudy so that was a possibility; but these guys were practically doing a Tom Cruse on the plane. How can they not know the difference when they were right next door escorting them? They were probably close enough to see the rivets. Reading the sign on the plane is a no brainer. If they were any closer they could have asked one of the flight attendants for some GRAY POUPON!

I think you are making a number of assumptions which aren't necessarily true. First of all, the pilot doesn't make the decision to shoot down the plane. He would be told to do so by leaders who tracked the plane from Poland where it passed very close to Putin's actual plane. This is what apparently caused the confusion. All the pilot would do would be to confirm the identity of the plane before shooting it. Most likely this would be done based on a rear view in which case the words on the plane would not be recognizable. If radar shows that the jet passed by the airliner, then most likely this was subsequent to the airliner being hit by bullets fired from the jet. Whether or not the pilot realized his mistake at this point is hard to say, but ultimately that is neither here nor there!
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby surfsteve » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:47 am

cactuspete wrote:
surfsteve wrote:If it happened that way, it could not have been an accident. It's really not that hard to tell the difference between Putin's Jet from the ground, it was cloudy so that was a possibility; but these guys were practically doing a Tom Cruse on the plane. How can they not know the difference when they were right next door escorting them? They were probably close enough to see the rivets. Reading the sign on the plane is a no brainer. If they were any closer they could have asked one of the flight attendants for some GRAY POUPON!

I think you are making a number of assumptions which aren't necessarily true. First of all, the pilot doesn't make the decision to shoot down the plane. He would be told to do so by leaders who tracked the plane from Poland where it passed very close to Putin's actual plane. This is what apparently caused the confusion. All the pilot would do would be to confirm the identity of the plane before shooting it. Most likely this would be done based on a rear view in which case the words on the plane would not be recognizable. If radar shows that the jet passed by the airliner, then most likely this was subsequent to the airliner being hit by bullets fired from the jet. Whether or not the pilot realized his mistake at this point is hard to say, but ultimately that is neither here nor there!


You tell me. How else could it have been accidentally shot down? Eye witnesses on the ground all said it blew up shortly after being escorted. In order for your version to match up with the eyewitness, they would have had to shot them full of bullet holes; then went oops, escorted them a while, pulled away; and then shortly afterwards the plane blew up!
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby surfsteve » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:52 am

Not to mention. Attempting to shoot down Putin''s plane is an act of war. It's not an excuse! What would be the difference?
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby cactuspete » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:21 am

surfsteve wrote:
cactuspete wrote:
surfsteve wrote:If it happened that way, it could not have been an accident. It's really not that hard to tell the difference between Putin's Jet from the ground, it was cloudy so that was a possibility; but these guys were practically doing a Tom Cruse on the plane. How can they not know the difference when they were right next door escorting them? They were probably close enough to see the rivets. Reading the sign on the plane is a no brainer. If they were any closer they could have asked one of the flight attendants for some GRAY POUPON!

I think you are making a number of assumptions which aren't necessarily true. First of all, the pilot doesn't make the decision to shoot down the plane. He would be told to do so by leaders who tracked the plane from Poland where it passed very close to Putin's actual plane. This is what apparently caused the confusion. All the pilot would do would be to confirm the identity of the plane before shooting it. Most likely this would be done based on a rear view in which case the words on the plane would not be recognizable. If radar shows that the jet passed by the airliner, then most likely this was subsequent to the airliner being hit by bullets fired from the jet. Whether or not the pilot realized his mistake at this point is hard to say, but ultimately that is neither here nor there!

You tell me. How else could it have been accidentally shot down? Eye witnesses on the ground all said it blew up shortly after being escorted. In order for your version to match up with the eyewitness, they would have had to shot them full of bullet holes; then went oops, escorted them a while, pulled away; and then shortly afterwards the plane blew up!

surfsteve wrote:Not to mention. Attempting to shoot down Putin''s plane is an act of war. It's not an excuse! What would be the difference?

I can't make heads or tails out of your comments. Kiev may have shot down the plane, but still believed they could get away with it by claiming that separatists did it on accident. It would be the best of both worlds and they may have been so in love with their plan that they didn't realize that it was faulty in some way. As for "escorting" the plane, it may be that the jets flew right next to the airliner shortly after shooting it and that an explosion occurred shortly thereafter. Who are the eyewitnesses and how clearly could they see the airplanes from their location?
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby surfsteve » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:54 am

After I read your comment I tried to research the eyewitness accounts of the plane blowing up shortly after being escorted. Not only can I not find any further data but I couldn't even find the hearsay links I remember reading in the first place. Very strange. Fake stories popping up all over like chaff to confuse radar!
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby surfsteve » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:01 am

Also on my mind is. How could eyewitnesses have "seen" the plane being escorted by fighter jets, when the weather says the view was blocked by clouds? That doesn't add up! The only true eye witness accounts I could find claimed they heard a loud explosion and then it started raining body and plane parts out of the sky. Which is consistent with it being a cloudy day.
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby pcslim » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:59 am

Ukraine: "MH17 recovery mission abandoned due to security fears," says head of Dutch mission
It is apparent that military leaders in Kiev never wanted the crash site to be thoroughly inspected. Otherwise, they would have cooperated with some sort of ceasefire. The separatists could only respond to attacks by Kiev forces and had no choice but to defend themselves. The only way that Russia could have guaranteed access to the crash site would have been to send troops in to secure the area. That puts Russia in a Catch-22 type of situation. It's hard not to conclude that Kiev has something to hide here.
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Re: History of Downed Commercial Flights

Postby desertrat » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:39 am

Ron Paul: US knows 'more than it's telling' over MH17 crash
At this point I'm EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL of the initial claims made by our government and media that separatists had anything to do with this incident. It's looking more and more like Kiev and Washington D.C. are working together to cover up what really happened. There's way too much evidence of foul play on the part of Kiev to believe that they didn't have something to do with the killing of the innocent civilians on the airliner and the fact that our government has not been forthright on this issue and tried to sell us a bunch of lies supporting their initial BS story on the issue convinces me that our government is actively covering up the real story.
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