Native American Issues

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Native American Issues

Postby wildrose » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:03 am

SOMEONE STOP HIM: Knowles completely demolishes second professor in one day
I chose this video to start this thread since Knowles quickly delves into the complexities of Native American history. Often the left likes to over-simplify the past and characterize past actions according to current social standards. That's not an intelligent way of dealing with the past. It's simply not fair to judge people who lived centuries ago by current standards.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby MojaveMike » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:16 pm

The Gruesome History of the Comanche Tribe w/S.C. Gwynne | Joe Rogan
Noble they were not, but on the other hand, they were very savage. At least this was the case for many of them. There were a whole lot of different tribes and not all were the same.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby CrustyOldFart » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:57 am

There are so many things in life that aren't quite exactly the way Hollywood portrays them. With the Indians of North America there was a lot of diversity and there were peaceful tribes and their were savage, murderous tribes. Unfortunately, many of the peaceful tribes were massacred by the savage tribes.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby wildbill » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:27 am

Misconceptions About Native Americans w/S.C. Gwynne
Were Native Americans victims of westward expansion? They were victimizing each other a long time before Europeans arrived and it got worse when they got horses which they didn't have until the Europeans brought them to the Americas!
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby shadylady » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:53 am

Americapox: The Missing Plague
Not mentioned in this video is the theory that syphilis originated in the Americas. The theory I heard is that it came from llamas which would have placed the point of origin in South America and from there is rapidly spread to North America. I've also heard that syphilis was widespread among North American tribes because people had sex all the time. Even kids were having sex with adults and it wasn't exactly all heterosexual style sex and animals weren't out of the question. Sex was seen in some tribes as more of a pleasurable game rather than something reserved only for holy matrimony. Even today adult-child sex is an issue on Native American reservations.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby torn80 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:41 pm

According to historical accounts it was common for entire tribes to be infected with some form of STD, even very young children. That's one of the reasons Native American children were sent to boarding schools. It was an attempt to get them to be less sexually promiscuous. Hunter and gatherer cultures don't have the same sexual boundaries which Europeans developed and Europeans tend to be very judgemental when it comes to that sort of thing. There's no doubt that STDs are a pretty good reason to curtail promiscuous behavior and this issue is usually avoided when criticizing Europeans for the way Native Americans were treated. When the entire story is openly discussed it becomes more and more difficult to be critical of European settlers, but at this time it is fashionable to blame Europeans for the problems of Native Americans and so when that illusory trend eventually passes by perhaps the truth will come to light.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby shadylady » Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:57 am

torn80: I agree that promiscuity and STDs were the main issue and that European settlers had prudish outlooks on sex, but many incidents are inexcusable. Native American children were sent to boarding schools and when they were caught having sex the punishments were extreme. Some boarding schools even have mass graves. Although many of these deaths could be attributed to smallpox or other diseases, there is some reason to think that some of the children were basically tortured to death for engaging in sexual activity with peers, which in their culture was seen as normal. These boarding schools were normally all boy or all girl facilities and the death rate at the all boy sites was much higher than was the case for the all girl facilities. Europeans were disgusted by homosexual behavior and their reaction was irrational and extreme, but they believed that they were acting in accord with dictates put forth in the Bible and so they felt justified.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby wildbill » Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:33 am

shadylady: I think the language you use could be a little imprecise. You say "having sex" and in the minds of different people that could mean a lot of things ranging from anal or oral sex, to mutual masturbation, to group masturbation, or possibly a few other things on top of that. Also Native American cultures were quite diverse, although the consensus is that most were quite promiscuous by European (post-Christian as opposed to Pagan) standards and even Europeans didn't have the same age restrictions which exist in our current culture. It was common for Europeans to marry at a young age and child brides were not unheard of. However, homosexuality was condemned by the European settlers, and Native American cultures, for the most part, didn't have those boundaries in place and some even believed in a "third sex" which was neither male or female. There are various ways of interpreting that, but the point is that Native American patterns of sexuality were quite different from European patterns of sexuality and Europeans were EXTREMELY intolerant of any form of sex which did not stay well within the boundaries of what they considered to be normal. There is little doubt that Native American children sent to boarding schools were severely punished for any sexual behavior which was considered deviant and at a boys only (or girls only) facility, basically any sexual behavior would be seen as deviant. Those running said institutions probably considered the death of a deviant a small price to pay for the overall betterment of society as they saw it. It's difficult to imagine the extreme evil and vile nature of placing children in a single sex institution and then punishing them for behaviors which they considered normal according to their cultural standards. In other words, "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby shadylady » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:39 am

wildbill: Thanks for the clarification. I agree that it's important to speak and write clearly, but it's difficult to be precise and concise at the same time. That being said, let me just add that hunter and gatherer cultures drew sexual boundaries quite differently than do modern Americans. They saw the world quite differently and so it should be no surprise that their moral values were quite different than ours. We gloss over that for the most part and there is a general failure to acknowledge realities which are quite fundamental to a complete understanding of history. Most people like to pretend that the people of the past were more like us now in the present than is actually the case. That fantasy reaffirms our current values, but a fantasy is just a fantasy and as comforting as it may be, it is horribly inaccurate.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby wildrose » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:41 am

Most primitive cultures do nothing to hide sexual behavior from children. In modern America some children grow up with no clue about sexual matters until they enter their teenage years. We call that their period of "innocence." Some children become aware of sexual matters during early childhood for a number of possible reasons. We call that "losing their innocence" or in some cases being "robbed of their innocence." In primitive cultures sex was just part of life and young children were likely to engage in sex play basically from infancy onward. Adults might even engage in such play with children. However, in most modern societies this sort of behavior is strictly forbidden and considered shameful. From a pragmatic point of view such cultural restrictions help reduce the incidence of unwanted pregnancy, the spread of STDs and diseases such as leprosy, and they greatly reduce incestuous sexual relations which are linked to increased incidence of birth defects. All of these things still occur, but at a much lower rate than would be the case if not for cultural restrictions. There is no doubt that Native Americans suffered greatly as a result of the revulsion European settlers experienced when they became aware of some of the sexual norms of Native Americans, and looking back it is an unfortunate and unpleasant, but completely predictable reaction which lead to what might be called genocide. However, it's easy to look at the past through the lens of the present and to unfairly judge past behaviors. European settlers had Sodom and Gomorrah in their heads and they feared the wrath of their Almighty God and believed they had the duty to rid the world of sexual misbehavior. Sodomy and homosexuality were considered to be "mortal sins" and early Americans would have seen it as their duty to eliminate such behavior. We have advanced beyond that now, but much of what happened in the past is quite understandable if we take the effort to see the world through the eyes of those who lived during that time. That's not always the case, but often it is and we should always strive to understand as fully as possible, rather than to simply condemn without careful consideration of the perceived reality of those who actually experienced the events we now consider to be history.
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