Native American Issues

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Re: Native American Issues

Postby drdesert » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:31 am

wildrose wrote:Most primitive cultures do nothing to hide sexual behavior from children. In modern America some children grow up with no clue about sexual matters until they enter their teenage years. We call that their period of "innocence." Some children become aware of sexual matters during early childhood for a number of possible reasons. We call that "losing their innocence" or in some cases being "robbed of their innocence." In primitive cultures sex was just part of life and young children were likely to engage in sex play basically from infancy onward. Adults might even engage in such play with children. However, in most modern societies this sort of behavior is strictly forbidden and considered shameful. From a pragmatic point of view such cultural restrictions help reduce the incidence of unwanted pregnancy, the spread of STDs and diseases such as leprosy, and they greatly reduce incestuous sexual relations which are linked to increased incidence of birth defects. All of these things still occur, but at a much lower rate than would be the case if not for cultural restrictions. There is no doubt that Native Americans suffered greatly as a result of the revulsion European settlers experienced when they became aware of some of the sexual norms of Native Americans, and looking back it is an unfortunate and unpleasant, but completely predictable reaction which lead to what might be called genocide. However, it's easy to look at the past through the lens of the present and to unfairly judge past behaviors. European settlers had Sodom and Gomorrah in their heads and they feared the wrath of their Almighty God and believed they had the duty to rid the world of sexual misbehavior. Sodomy and homosexuality were considered to be "mortal sins" and early Americans would have seen it as their duty to eliminate such behavior. We have advanced beyond that now, but much of what happened in the past is quite understandable if we take the effort to see the world through the eyes of those who lived during that time. That's not always the case, but often it is and we should always strive to understand as fully as possible, rather than to simply condemn without careful consideration of the perceived reality of those who actually experienced the events we now consider to be history.

It takes a lot of intelligence and maturity to view history from different cultural perspectives. Such a mental task is far beyond the capacity of a large percentage of the population and then there are those who are intellectual cowards who shy away from such an undertaking even when they have the necessary raw intelligence. Looking at culturally sensitive issues requires a certain degree of detachment and ruthlessness. One cannot give into the urge to protect the feelings of others. Intellectual integrity is impossible when emotions are allowed to get in the way of cold, hard analytic scrutiny.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby rainbow » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:53 pm

Innocence? That's such a weird concept. The way wildrose uses it the idea seems to be that children are "innocent" because they are unaware of sex. I've heard other people use it in reference to primitive people as a lack of awareness that sex and nakedness are considered to be improper or sinful. So, maybe some Indian tribes had no sexual boundaries having to do with age or gender or any other boundary imagined to exist by us "modern" people and as such they were innocent.
JONI MITCHELL wrote:I pulled off into a forest
Crickets clicking in the ferns
Like a wheel of fortune
I heard my fate turn, turn turn
And I went running down a white sand road
I was running like a white-assed deer
Running to lose the blues
To the innocence in here
These are the clouds of Michelangelo
Muscular with gods and sungold
Shine on your witness in the refuge of the roads

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Re: Native American Issues

Postby zuma » Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:56 pm

Cortez the Killer
I don't know what's worse Cortez who killed the Aztecs or the Aztecs who practiced human sacrifice. Then again if it weren't for smallpox Cortez may have been the one who wound up being killed. Why Neil Young is so upset with Cortez beats the hell out of me. The song sounds cool, but the sentiment doesn't really work. Cortez might have been bad, but the Aztecs were every bit as bad. The world is better off as a result of the explorations of Columbus and Cortez and at this point it's all water under the bridge. Painting the Aztecs as anything other than despicable makes no sense and although Cortez was no hero either, nor were the Conquistadors, nor the Spanish missionaries, they weren't true villains either. History can't be changed and complaining about something based on an incomplete understanding of what actually happened makes no sense!
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby BoraxBill » Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:28 am

History is complex and often over-simplified. Europeans did not hate Native Americans because of the color of their skin. Hatred is something which is "earned" as the result of bad behavior. Often irrational factors come to play as has been discussed here. It could be that Europeans were appalled by the sexual practices of Native Americans and felt compelled to irradicate them due to beliefs based on passages from the Bible. It could be that feuds occurred and escalation followed. It could be some other aspect of Native American culture which offended Europeans. It could have been any number of potential factors, but it's also the case that just as there were many Native American tribes (and therefore cultural traditions), there were also many perspectives held among people of European ancestry. Above all it should be recognized that over ninety percent of the deaths were due to the natural spread of smallpox. In other words, what happened was bound to happen and although there were bad things done by both Native Americans and Europeans, there was also much which was accomplished and we're all ultimately better off as the result of the efforts of explorers and settlers.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby shadylady » Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:37 pm

Sexual issues are involved in most major conspiracies in one way or the other. Take the Salem Witch Trials, for instance. The women accused of being witches actually were sexually promiscuous women who slept around and as a result spread STDs. The men infected with the STDs were understandably unhappy, but more importantly they had to have a story to tell their wives and so they made up a story about a witch who had cast a spell on them which caused them to have the disease. Knowledge of STDs wasn't widespread back then as it is now and so the wives also became angry at the "witches" (aka, women who made themselves available to the men) and so it was easy enough to treat the "witches" in a most unfair manner. The part about sex is left out of most discussions and without that detail the story really doesn't make a lot of sense.

The same thing goes with Indian children at boarding schools. The people running the schools were shocked by the behavior of the Indian children and it was so bad from their Bible-influenced point of view that they saw it as their duty to beat the homosexual behavior out of the students even if that meant that the students wound up dead. As they say, the Devil's in the details and when certain important (aka, usually sex-related) details are left out of a story, the story doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby panamint_patty » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:02 am

The Intriguing History of Native Americans & Cannabis Use
Europeans brought marijuana to the Americas in the 1500s. The local natives enthusiastically adopted it as one of their favorite smokes!
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby cloud » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:08 am

rainbow wrote:Innocence? That's such a weird concept. The way wildrose uses it the idea seems to be that children are "innocent" because they are unaware of sex. I've heard other people use it in reference to primitive people as a lack of awareness that sex and nakedness are considered to be improper or sinful. So, maybe some Indian tribes had no sexual boundaries having to do with age or gender or any other boundary imagined to exist by us "modern" people and as such they were innocent.

The contradiction is mind expanding. Innocence could be seen either way, but I like the more natural approach although it clashes with our current cultural interpretation of the word.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby rainbow » Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:27 am

cloud: I don't endorse either perspective, but I realize that they are equally legitimate. I just try to see the reality of things and understand them the best I can.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby wildrose » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:32 am

shadylady wrote:The same thing goes with Indian children at boarding schools. The people running the schools were shocked by the behavior of the Indian children and it was so bad from their Bible-influenced point of view that they saw it as their duty to beat the homosexual behavior out of the students even if that meant that the students wound up dead. As they say, the Devil's in the details and when certain important (aka, usually sex-related) details are left out of a story, the story doesn't make a lot of sense.

It's ironic how the Bible is supposed to be about God's love and yet here we see the Bible spreading hate and not just hate, but hate which contributed to genocide.
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Re: Native American Issues

Postby deathvalleyjake » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:34 pm

Many of the posts in this thread are what you might call politically incorrect. From a speculative scientific point of view there are valid point being made as long as we're speaking hypothetically, but generally it's considered impolite to speculate in ways which might offend the sensibilities of someone somewhere. Then again the truth and the facts often turn out that way.
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